"Stranger still, the ancient religion of the Jews survives, when all the religions of every ancient race of the pre-Christian world have disappeared. Again it is strange that the living religions of the world all build on the religious ideas derived from the Jews" - The Ancient World, Professor T.R. Glover

"According to the materialistic and positivist criterion, this people ought to have perished long ago. It's survival is a mysterious and wonderful phenomenon demonstrating that the life of this people is governed by a special predetermination..."
- The Meaning of History, Professor Nicholas Berdkilaev of the Moscow Academy of Spiritual Culture

"It was Judaism that brought the concept of a God-given universal moral law into the world...the Jew carries the burden of God in history and for this he has never been forgiven" - Distinguished Catholic Scholar Edward H. Flannery

Fact: Judaism is the only religion in the world that lost its holy land and has regained it.

Sunday, December 27, 2009

YHVH Verses Allah and the Uncorrupted Zionist Scriptures: My Debate with a Muslim

The following is an abridged version of an lengthy debated I had on You Tube in December, 2009 with an educated Muslim who goes by the name of "Sumawiganda". The debate began with the issue of the Name of the God of Israel - YHVH, and the god of Islam - Allah, and ended with the subject of Zionism, or should I say the hot-topic of Zionism, ended the debate.

Sumawi: Genesis 1:1
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת האר
Bereishit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'aretz.
"In Beginning Elohim"

My Response: Exodus 20:3
Lo-yeyeh lchah "elohim" achareem alpani
(You shall have no other god(s) before me.)
"Al-illah" The (crescent moon) god. Elohim?

Sumawi: You contradictyourself!
Elohim = Eloh + im
im = plural respect
Eloh = Alloh = Allah

My Response: "The contradiction is in your will to falsely make an object (in this case an "object of worship") a proper name. "God" "god"or "gods" are not proper names, they are "titles". Is your proper name "man"? No?
It would be like me stating in English, "The name of my God is "God".
"Elohim" in Hebrew can denote the one true God of Israel or it can denote false god(s) as well!
Elohim can indeed mean Allah - as a "false elohim".
Giving "titles" "proper names" is outside the scope of the Hebrew Biblical."

Sumawi: Jesus called his God, Allah! or Elloh. Are you against Jesus and New Testament?

My Response: "Jesus' Aramaic though similar to the pronunciation of "Al-lah" was not directed towards "Al-illah" the (crescent mood) god" of pre-Islam Arabia.
In other words, during the exact time period and even on the very "same day" that Jesus spoke the word "Ellah" in reference to God, the Arabians were saying "Allah" to their moon-god.
The God that Jesus prayed to and the god(s) Arabians prayed to were two different gods of the same time period altogether!
Islam now makes the attempts to portray their past crescent moon-god as YHVH - but they don't have His Name to do that with do they?"

Sumawi: Why did God use name ALLAH in the beginning of the bible, Genesis 1:1 why he didn't use YHWH? Or why "Yahweh" wasn't even the first thing GOD Almighty was addressed with in the Bible! Intriguing question huh ?
Why God almighty didn't introduce YHWH from Adam till Abraham instead He called himself Allah?

My Response: First a minor point: It was "Elohim" not "Allah" in Gen 1:1 - two different pronunciations.
Now here is an intriguing answer to your intriguing question:
Genesis is a record of God's (Elohim) power. - Genesis does not touch on the subject concerning the intimacy between God's spirit and man.
Only His chosen people (priests to the nations) are to receive His most personal Name.
Exodus 3:15 states:
"YHVH - Elohim of your fathers, Elohim of Abraham, Elohim of Isaac, and Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is My NAME FOR EVER, and thisis My memorial unto ALL generations."

Sumawi: And so Adam, Noah, Abraham WERE NOT CHOSEN PEOPLE ? This doesn't add up right!

My Response: Exodus 6:2-3
"And Elohim spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am YHVH: And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of El Shadai, but by My Name YHVH was I not known to them."
There was a reason!
Deuteronomy 7:6
"For thou art an holy people unto YHVH thy Elohim: YHVH thy Elohim hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."
Exodus 19:6
"And ye [Israel] shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."

Sumawi: I challenge you to USE your intellect!
If you believe in One God AND AGREE WITH HIS ATTRIBUTES to mention a few :

The Unique, The One without partner (Al Waahid)
The All knowing (Al Alim)
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning (Al Awwal)
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end (Al Akhir)
The Living (Al Hayyu)
The Eternal (As samad)
..and many more.
If you agree with these attributes, then YOUR GOD IS MY GOD - the same God. A name can be anything. Use your intellect!

My Response: Wouldn't "true" intellect tell one to listento what YHVH states about His very own personal name?
Psalms 29:2
"Give unto YHVH the glory due unto His Name; worship YHVH in the beauty of holiness"
Isaiah 42:8
"I am YHVH: that is My Name"
Wow, that's real clear, is it not?
Here is some Biblical intellect for you:
Psalms 96:4
"For all the "elohim" of the nations are idols ("eli-lim" in the Hebrew): but YHVH made the heavens"
Psalms 34:3
"O magnify YHVH with me, and let us exalt "His Name" together."
Fact: The personal name of YHVH is stated nearly 7,000 times in the Hebrew Bible (three times more than any appellation such as El, Eloh, or Elohim) yet this most holy Name is not mentioned "once" in the Koran! It is to this fact, that all you can say is, "use your intellect"?
Get spiritually real!

Sumawi: "What version of Bible areyou using? Please advise."

My Response: "I don't believe in "versions". May YHVH save us fromthe Gentile translators. (And I myself am a Hebrew Bible - reading Gentile).
The Hebrew Bible must be read and understood in the Hebrew - the language YHVH revealed Himself to His prophets, and from where His most personal Name was given!
Ezekiel 39:7 states:
"So will I make My holy Name known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let them pollute My Holy Name any more: and the Gentiles shall know that I am YHVH, the Holy One in Israel."

Sumawi: "How do you pronounceYHVH? Don't lie to me!"

My Response: "We know that the first part is pronounced "yah" because of the Hebrew names within the Bible carry that Name such as Yer-mah-YAH-HU (Jeremiah) Ovad-YAH (Obadiah), Ye-sha-YAH-HU (Isaiah).
We also know that it ends with the shortened "H" sound, along withthe two middle letter "Vav" with an original sounding "W" sound."

"Sumami, I know what your getting at.
Just know that the nations (including weak Israel) can't profane that Name.
The Messianic Age brings in that Name in it's full glory."

Sumawi: "ahahahah ...you are guessing and not sure how to pronounce it.
Well, doesn't add up right ... you are obsessed with YHVH as his personal name butyou are not sure how to call him ????
I think this is end of story ...
If you are true Jesus follower, call the true God just like Jesus called Him, Allah."

My Response: YHVH is not to be pronounced until the true line of David messiah comes, as you noted Jesus "prophet of Islam - to Muslims" didn't even pronounce it, did he?
It's not a question on whether we know how to pronounce it or not, its a matter of holy reverence towards that holy Name.
I have never heard YHVH taken it in vain - the ones who did in the Bible died immediately, but I hear "god" (Allah) being taken in vain all the time!
The real question is, why doesn't Islam have even an reference of that name?

Sumawi: "Okay now you are admit that you DON'T KNOW HOW to pronounce your God's name while you are obsessed with the name. And you said IT IS A MATTER OF HOLY REFERENCE ! A-HA ! This is what I have been talking about the whole discussion: A REFERENCE OF WHO HE IS - YOU ACKNOWLEDGE HIS CHARACTER AND HIS ATTRIBUTE (in arabic = sifah).
You acknowledge he is one, unique=AHAD
You acknowledge he is The Highest Glory=Akbar
You acknowledge he is The Living, never Die, Eternal=SAMAD
and so on and so forth..."

My Response: "I never said I didn't know how to pronounce YHVH, you said that.
YHVH is not to be spoken "while knowing" how to pronounce it in every day usage. Instead we say HaShem meaning "The Name".
The appellations you named doesn't speak what His name means or Is.
When the nations recognize His Name for what it truly means, Israel will be gloried in the site of all nations.
Ezekiel 37:28 states:
"And the gentiles shall know that I "YHVH" do sanctify Israel,when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."

Sumawi: "So you know the true pronunciation of YHWH?
Then you should publish your thesis in biblical communityand to Jewish scholars around the world."
1. "the true pronunciation of YHWH is quite lost."
The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language,
David Crystal, pg. 9, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge.
2. "The true pronunciation of this name, by which God was known to the Hebrews, has been entirely lost."
The New Ungers Bible Dictionary, pg. 781,
Ed. Merrill Unger, Moody Press, Chicago, 1988.

My Response: "The sources that you give are gentile sources who have an interest (likethat of Islam) in having that Name lost to promote their gentile non-YHVH religion.
Perhaps you should learn Hebrew and then read Genesis 2:4, Psalms 68:4 and Isaiah 26:4 as well as many other places in the Book of Psalms in the Hebrew."

Sumawi: "I am a Muslim and believe AL HAYY is one of the beautiful name of God.It is there recorded in Quran Hu Wa Ha Yu (HWHY), I believe in Quran entirely and consequently I believe He the Living is one of His beautiful name."

My Response: "Your very posts in debating the pronunciation of YHVH proves your motivation sumawi! The title "Al Hayy" means nothing more to you than trying to prove that YHVH is Allah,
Q. "Why is YHVH used three times as much as Elohim throughout the Hebrew Bible as God's Most personal Name if "Elohim" means "Allah" of Mohammad?

Sumawi: Corruption of the scribes! - Jeremiah 8:8
As proof: Jesus NEVER called his God JHWH. Why? Because Jesus knew the correct name is Allah or Elloh or Eloh or Aloh.
The Old Testament is not reliable, the false scribes had injected YHVH to become prominence. If YHVH is the proper name of God, why did Jesus never called Him YHVH - not EVEN ONCE, my friend?
Another proof: Jesus taught US (you and me) on daily prayer or Lord prayer .. "Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name"
Why not Our YHWH, which are in heaven?

My Response: "Was the prophet Jeremiah corrupt was he wrote Jeremiah 8:8?
If not, then what we have from Jeremiah is something true and uncorrupted. Did Jesus (prophet of Islam according to Muslims) say that the Hebrew scriptures were corrupted? According to Jesus the scriptures are not corrupt:
"Search the scriptures; 'FOR IN THEM' ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." - John 5:39
It's ridiculous to suggest that Jesus wanted the Pharisees to search "corrupted scriptures" that he believed testified of him!

Your answer proves 2 things:
1. You concede that YHVH is the most prominent Name throughout the Hebrew Bible over Elohim.
2. Your goal via Islam, is to blot out this most Holy and Most Personal Name of your creator and replace with the pre-Islam name of a moon-god!

Jesus - a prophet of Islam according to the Muslims - also stated:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18
This would prove that the "same law" that Jesus was talking about in Matthew 5:18 was indeed the "same Law" that Jeremiah was talking about in Jeremiah 8:8 was not corrupted as Islam claims.
Note: Only those who don't obey it make the uncorrupted Law seem vain was the meaning of the text!
Did you notice the very text of Jeremiah 8:8-9 carries the very Name of "YVHV" (that according to you, Jesus never spoke) twice! Are we to believe that the Islamic proof-text of this so-called "scripture corruption" was itself corrupted? Give me a break!

Sumawi: I believe whosoever believes in the one true God with his heart, mind and soul they will be saved as in Quran 2:62
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians -- whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve"
Based on that, YOU ARE SAVED TOO! InsyaAllah.

My Response: Sumawi, please, I know you mean well, but come on,
I know the difference in a Meccan revelation and a Medinan revelation.
The one you gave is "nasikh" - (sura 2:106 / 16:100)
Here, let me give you the "latest version":
"And whoever believes not in Allah AND HIS MESSENGER - then surely We have have prepared burning Fire for the disbeliever" - Sura 48:13
Still think I'm "saved" Sumawi?

Sumawi: As the Quran 48:13 says : YES you are saved! Insya Allah. Quran 48:13 doesn't say "And whoever believes not in Allah AND MUHAMMAD.... right?
See how true the Quran is:
Because you believe in YHVH for me means you believe in the TRUE ONE GOD which we the Muslims call him Allah. I have a Jehovah Witness friend. I told him, "you are a believer in One True God without partner and you are the follower of the God's messenger".

My Response: From Maulana Muhammad Ali English translation:
Quote: "And whoever believes not in Allah AND HIS MESSENGER - then surely We have have prepared burning Fire for the disbeliever" - Sura 48:13
Ayat (verse) 29 of the same sura: (Quote)
"Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the disbelievers"
Ayat 29 explain very vividly ayat 13 (above).

Sura 98:6
"Those who disbelieve from among the "People of the Book" and idolaters will be in the fire of hell abiding therein..."

Sura 18:102
"Do those who disbelieve think that they can take My servants to be friends besides Me? Surely, We have prepared hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers"

Ali's footnote of this ayat:
"The Christians are meant here, because theirs is the most prominent example of have taken a servant of Allah, a prophet, for God"

Now compared sura 18:102 with sura 5:54:
"O you who believe, take not the Jews and the Christians for friends......surely Allah guides not the unjust people"

Sura 3:85
"And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him. and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers"
Sura 98:6
"Those who disbelieve from among the "People of the Book" and idolaters will be in the fire of hell abiding therein. They are the worst of creatures." - sura 98:6

Sumawi: The answer to Surah 3:85
"Islam" means surrender /submission to the true God Alone and his will. Therefore, if you submit yourself to Him alone then you are a Muslim. There are many prophets but only One religion and One message. And Muhammad is the last and the seal of prophet.
The answer to sura 98:6
"Those who disbelieve among the People of the Book" ... do you understand this? Those who disbelieve (NOT ALL) only some of them of the People of the Book. Some of disbelieved from among the Jew and Christians and idolaters. Gotit?

My Response: The sura states: "WHOEVER" believes not in Allah and his messenger. then surely we have prepared burning Fire for the disbelievers."
This "whoever" literally means everyone who don't believe in Muhammad. "Those who disbelieve" meaning, from out of the Jews and Christians and idolaters who had not converted to Islam!
Proof: sura 5:51 "O you who believe take not the Jews and Christians for friends....surely Allah guides not the unjust people." The religion of the people is what is singled out in the Koran.

Sumawi: No...no..no..... you misunderstood! "His Messenger" in Quran 4:80 IS NOT exclusively Muhammad, it is depend on who you or one follows. It could be Moses (such as a Jew) orJesus (such as Christian, not trinitarian Christian).
As proof : Quran 2:62
"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Quran 3:110
"... If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
Focus on this:

Quran 3:113
"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration."
Let's Repeat: Quran 2:62 ...
"Christian & Jew whoever believes ..shall no fear..."
Quran 3:110
Christian & Jew ... "among them are some who have faith"
Quran 3:113
Christian & Jew... "Not all of them are alike..."
IN GOD EYES, some of Jew and some Christians ARE TRUE BELIEVER.

My Response: Since the religious Jews are "submitted" (Islam) to the same YHVH of 2:255, and are not seeking another religion in being "submitted" according to 3:85, let's petition the Palestinians in giving Israel their huge religious-Zionist State!
As your post would indicate, monotheistic Judaism Israeli Jews do "submit" and indeed follow Allah, right? It's not like they follow another God outside Islam, right?
Does YHVH of 2:255 want the Palestinians murder fellow "submitted" Jews?
What does the "noor" (bright-light) hadiths say?

The so-called Jewish settlers of the West Bank are not "among those" of The People Book who disbelieve according to 98:6.
Their God is YHVH according to 2:255, and they are "submitted" to YHVH according to 3:85.
They follow "their messenger"Musa (Moses), in accordance to 48:13. They recite Allah's "Taruat" (Torah) messages according to 3:113!
Therefore, JUDEAH AND SAMARIAH (the whole West Bank) needs to be part of the religious-Zionist State of Israel to the glory of Allah!
What do you say Sumawi?

Sumawi: Your question is more about politics and about Zionism - a movement to create a State of Israel - than religious discussion. I can't answer your question here, this is beyond our scope of topics.

My Response: All politics is religious based. Basically, I'm testing your "light interpretation" of 2:255, 3:85, 3:113, 4:80, 48:13, and 98:6 to see if you really do believe that, or if you were using al-takiyah (even subconsciously) and not realizing it.
Zionism is very Biblical:
"For I will take you from among the Gentiles, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land." - Ezekiel. 37:24
So what about those "submitted to Allah"(3:85, 3:113, 4:80, 48:13)? Those Jewish West Bank "submitted" settlers?

Sumawi: If Iraq attack Quwait and occupied the land with oppression and plus flooded the land with Iraqi settlement. Both are Muslim countries yet it is still not justified. If I am Quwaiti, I will defend my country till the end. At the end who is the mastermind?
Again I have tons of answer but I don't want to discuss politics.
Concerning 9/11 - who is the mastermind?
Was it an indisde job? or Al-Qaida ? What is Al-Qaida?
No discussion on politics, I can't answer further.

My Response: You are a moderate pretender. Your misguided mindset towards Israeli Jews proves you really don't believe what you posted concerning 2:255-256, 3:85, 3:113, 4:80, 48:6, 98:6. Your goal was spiritual use of takiyah.
Tell me sumawi, what "LAND" was suras 5:21 and 17:104 talking about, and "For Whom" was "the LAND" for?
Mastermind? Who indeed admitted to being the mastermind? Some Zionist or bin Laden and Zawahiri? Who are the ones calling them the "Magnificent 19"? the Zionists or the Wahabbists?

Getting back to Islam's god Allah and Judaism's YHVH, it dawned on me you really can't see the difference due to Islam's blinding you to the truth.
Islam's influence on you is so great that you are able to believe the 9/11 "white-supremacy" Zionist conspiracy instead of the confessed bin Laden himself that began with his 1998 fatwa!
This demonstrates that you don't have the spiritual ability to even discern between YHVH and the pre-Islamic crescent moon-god named Al-iallh (Allah).

Sumawi: Zionism is wrong ! NOT ALL Jews are Zionist and Judaism IS NOT Zionism!
Bin Laden? Who is he? Whoever made an attack on 9/11 is wrong!
Who is the mastermind? Building #7? The Pentagon? - A bunch of unanswered questions.
I will stop replying to your comments about Zionism, 9/11, etc. because it is beyond scope of discussion. In the beginning the topic was if YHWH=Allah, and yes, they are the same.

My Response: Zionism is an intricate part of the Hebrew Bible!
The return of Exiles from Babylon was what? Zionism.
What is the prophecy in Ezekiel 37:21-28? Zionism!
Zionism is not only Biblical but is part of YHVH!
Judaism is based upon the everlasting covenant which consist of four elements:
1. YHVH 2. The Jewish People 3. The Torah 4. The Land of Israel.
All four elements make up the everlasting covenant and are literally saturated throughout the Hebrew Torah and the writings of the Hebrew Prophets!

Who is Bin Laden? Who is al-ikhwān al-muslimūn (Muslim Brotherhood) that is 70 million strong, that groups such as "Islamic Jihad" "Al-Queda" and "Hamas" that derived from this Al -Banna secret society? Was Hassan al-Banna a Zionist too?
Who was Abdullah Yusuf Azzam the West Bank global jihadist who inspired Bib Laden? A Zionist?
Perhaps we could read Bin Laden's February 23, 1998 Fatwa word for word, and then ask ourselves: Is this man controlled by theZionist?
Sumawi, quite playing the "Zionist Conspiracy game"!

Your Zionist conspiracy mindset ties into your Jewish scripture corruption conspiracy. They run hand in hand, just like Palestinian Jewish temple denial and Holocaust denial run hand in hand! Can't you see that? Have you ever though there might be a "Gentile Conspiracy" against the Jews?